John Marston was born in 1873. This coincides with Cornwall, Bronte, and even Dutch's ways, which is a major theme of both games: spreading "civilization" and gaining prosperity in the Wild West usually involved the deaths of many other people, whether it be outlaws with a bounty, Native Americans living on desired land, or simple cattle rustlers. As John Marston, Thomas Downes, and even Clint Eastwood's character William Munny in the film Unforgiven suggest, living as a farmhand/rancher during this time is full of low-paying, tough work. 3 Answers. Right after Arthur accuses Micah and the Pinkertons arrive, the game gives the player a choice: help John get back to his family or head back to camp to retrieve the heist money. Pour autoriser Verizon Media et nos partenaires à traiter vos données personnelles, sélectionnez 'J'accepte' ou 'Gérer les paramètres' pour obtenir plus d’informations et pour gérer vos choix. When John was threatened to be lynched after being caught stealing at the age of 12, he was saved by Dutch van der Linde, who took him into his gang and raised him. He was even kidnapped by the Braithwaite family. Javier implies he assumes John's daughter is alive in RDR1 by referring to John's "children", which confirms that she didn't die before the gang's fall. You can actually visit Fort Mercer, where Bill's new gang took refuge in the first game, but by the end of Red Dead Redemption 2 it's another hangout for the Del Lobos gang. Rockstar attempted this with Red Dead Redemption as well where John Marston dies and then three years later the story picks up with his son Jack Marston being able to … Thank you so much. Most of these locations are fairly empty with little to do. Red Dead vets know Bill and Javier's pasts catch up to them years later. Red Dead Redemption 2 shows just how far both Arthur Morgan and John Marston were willing to follow Dutch Van der Linde, and while both characters eventually met their breaking point it was Arthur who made sure John was safe first. 1 decade ago. Now that I think about it, I do have one more question for anybody willing to answer. If you go back for the money, Micah will knife-fight Arthur in the camp's burning remains. He frequently threatens Irish into sobering up so as to be of some use to him, and he is clearly disturbed/disgusted by Seth's habitual grave robbing. Check Out the Epilogue 1 Walkthrough Here Acquire House & Ranch in Great Plains. Considering that most Red Dead vets knew what was going to happen to the crew from the events of the previous game, Rockstar still threw plenty of surprising curveballs our way, painting an amazing picture of both ruthlessness and humanity. John Marston began making bicycles in 1877 with the trademark Sunbeam suggested by his wife. 10 years ago. Let's step over the smoldering O'Driscoll corpses, reload our revolvers, giddy-up our horses, and break down just how Dutch's gang fell from grace. Most of them are doing quite … Now that's out of the way, let's go through our list of bounties, and it all starts with protagonist Arthur Morgan. TL;DR - John doesn’t mention Arthur in RDR1 because 1) It hurts him to think of Arthur, 2) He’s ashamed that Arthur saved his family, 3) Arthur said to not look back. Most of the early strangers' missions were driven by money for Arthur, but after the diagnosis, they turn into simply doing the right thing. Answer Save. My question is how did John Marston die? Informations sur votre appareil et sur votre connexion Internet, y compris votre adresse IP, Navigation et recherche lors de l’utilisation des sites Web et applications Verizon Media. John's father was blinded in both eyes during a bar fight south of Chicago. Asked by Wiki User. The ring John uses to propose to Abigail is Arthur's old wedding ring, and after Arthur dies John begins journaling in an effort to help keep his memory alive. Relevance. Jenny Kirk's grave can be found at Spider Gorge. Mary Watson (née Morstan) was the wife of Dr John Watson.She is first introduced in The Sign of Four and Watson refers to her in a number of the stories. Throughout Red Dead Redemption 2, you can see Jack's interactions with Dutch's gang members, including his father John (or lack thereof). With high honor, Micah runs away after losing an eye, and Arthur dies in peace. Mary-Beth Gaskill became a successful novelist, and can be found at the Valentine train station. Players will have a stationary camp in the form of the Marston's ranch in Great Plains. Similar to the first Red Dead Redemption making a grown up Jack Marston the playable character after John's death, this game's epilogue puts you in the boots of John, who is trying to make an honest living with his wife and son years after Arthur's passing. Davey Callander, who died during the intro, is buried at Polter. John's death at the end of the first game and Jack's upbringing with the gang in the second result in the lone cowboy we meet in Red Dead Redemption's epilogue. Similar to the good deeds he does near the end of his life, telling this story helps become part of the catharsis he needs in finding his true self beneath the scumbag he was for all those years. The greatest tragedy of Red Dead Redemption 2 is not Arthur’s untimely demise, but just how little he actually changed… His final words to John reveal his paradoxical core, having failed to suppress both the changes in the world and his own savage nature. As Arthur's TB worsens, he tells Rain Falls about Eliza, a waitress Arthur impregnated in his younger days. Yahoo fait partie de Verizon Media. When you look past all the random chaos, UFOs, and other awesome Easter eggs, there's an amazing story connecting the Van der Linde gang. Simon Pearson can be found running the general store in Rhodes. Now that you're playing as John Marston, you can find every one of your former gang members who also survived. His multiple failures and setbacks combined with years of recluse in the mountains, results in the broken man we met near the end of the first game. 0 0. blonsky. As a little boy, Jack witnessed people dying, endured all kinds of hardships, and lived throughout the multiple times Dutch's camp was attacked by the O'Driscolls and Pinkertons. Top Answer. Reverend Orville Swanson, who sobered himself up from both alcohol and drug addiction and quietly left the gang during Chapter Six, is mentioned in a newspaper article, detailing his rise to ranks as a highly successful minister in New York. With Arthur avenged, and John set with a huge amount of … As Arthur tries to escape the Pinkertons with John, his horse gets critically injured and dies. Unfortunately, John keeps resorting to guns for various reasons, resulting in Abigail leaving with Jack since she believes the outlaw gunman in her husband will never die. Once you’ve done this, the game isn’t over – you still have two entire epilogue chapters where you play as John Marston. If you've come to this campfire, you already know how Red Dead Redemption 2 ends, and how Arthur Morgan's story comes to close. Dutch was a leader known for his philosophy, charisma, and words, but he has multiple layers to him and the savage within him emerges several times, such as when he needlessly killed the innocent woman during the Blackwater robbery. He commits suicide, refusing to hand himself over to John and Edgar Ross, because he wanted to die on his own terms and not the establishment's. At the end of Red Dead Redemption, John Marston has finished hunting down the old members of his gang as part of a deal with Federal Agent Edgar Ross.In exchange for … The top model was the 'Golden' with alloy wheel-rims, epicyclic two- and three-speed gears and real gold-leaf pin-striping. This is arguably one of the biggest changes ever seen in a Rockstar character. After checking the shack, John finds the gang's collected heist score that Dutch knowingly left for John and Sadie, his remaining gang members. John spent a few years in an orphanage before running away. Red Dead Redemption 2 adds characters and subtly changes things mentioned in RDR. Hedied because he was staying behind to stop his family from getting hurt. Despite its colossal world, gorgeous visuals, twisted satire, gunslinging showdowns, and plethora of things to see and do, Red Dead Redemption 2 is ultimately a story about people. His final words to John reveal his paradoxical core, having failed to suppress both the changes in the world and his own savage nature. The factory was renamed Sunbeamland and Marston based his production on high build quality, with enclosure lubricated chains, which until 1936 became the best cycles on the market. Kieran Duffy's grave is outside of Shady Belle. John can find out what happened to the rest of the gang via in-game encounters. He knows what Marston is going to do before he does it, and he hints that Marston's tragic death is … Unfortunately, the whereabouts of Karen Jones, who heavily descended into alcoholism near the end, are unknown. While America did tame the West and the age of the desperado for the most part ended, Jack became a gunman just for the sake of getting revenge on Ross, proof that the Wild West's spirit endured in a few remaining people. After all the smoke settles, the player is free to explore the major locations of the first game (excluding Mexico). However, he is not above employing sarcasm in conversation with certain characters, particularly those he sees as exhibiting hypocrisy, such as Abraham Reyes. The Red Dead Redemption franchise has two great protagonists in John Marston and … In an early mission, Arthur has to collect a loan-shark debt from Thomas Downes, who was a poor farmer with a bad cough. The last part of the game's main story involves a final standoff with Dutch emerging from Micah's shack on Mount Hagen, having recently partnered up with him for the first time since Arthur's death. Rob Wiethoff was born on September 15, 1976 in Seymour, Indiana, USA as Robert Allen Wiethoff. His father was an illiterate Scottish immigrant, who was born on the boat into New York, while his mother was a prostitute, who passed away during John's birth. Découvrez comment nous utilisons vos informations dans notre Politique relative à la vie privée et notre Politique relative aux cookies. He is also a fairly serious individual with very little patience for the eccentricities of both life and the various people he meets during the events of Red Dead Redemption. If you help John escape while having low honor, Micah will shoot Arthur in the head. The biggest change in New Austin between the two games is the town of Tumbleweed, which is still populated with townsfolk and amenities but slowly becoming a ghost town. Nevertheless, that's the last we ever hear from them. The emotional weight of the game’s final chapter makes me want to walk away, but there’s a brief flash of excitement when I learn I’ll be playing as John Marston, again. I’m planning on making two saves so I … After the TB diagnosis, Arthur changes. Ms. Susan Grimshaw's grave can be found close to the remains of the final Van der Linde camp of Beaver Hollow. He has been married to Tayler Wiethoff since 2011. If you help John get away, Micah will fistfight Arthur on a mountain top. Of course, his last words also foreshadow Ross' betrayal and John's death. While John has had problems expressing himself, especially during the awkward exchanges with son, this is yet another RDR protagonist suppressing his sorrowful emotions. Seantel. john marston gets them but you will need to do a few missions till you get them back. Not long after, she reluctantly requests that Arthur Morgan go out into the snowstorm and bring back John Marston, and after some convincing from Hosea, he gr… John's reluctance to talk about Arthur could explain why he was never mentioned in the first game, despite the sacrifice he gave for the Marstons. John's turn towards bounty hunting to pay off his loans is a grim reminder that the gunslinger inside him is who he truly is, despite his attempts to suppress it for a more wholesome way of life. Having high honor at this part results in a similar ending of Micah running away, but with Arthur seeing one serene final sunrise in peace during his dying breaths. Even worse is how Dutch treats the Marstons, who are family to him. By using our Services, you agree to our use of cookies. After years of hiding, his failure to stop civilization from domesticating the Wild West, his refusal to believe Arthur's dying words, his blindness to Micah's betrayal, the multiple gang members who have needlessly died (especially Hosea and Arthur), the betrayals of the bureaucrats he wanted to make deals with, and the multiple failed heists or lost scores, Dutch loses many of the key attributes he proudly displayed during the first half of the game. Admitting he liked their son, Isaac, Arthur would visit and give them money sporadically throughout the years, despite the outlaw life he was already living. Abigail first appears after traveling with the rest of the Van der Linde gang through the mountains following their botched ferry heist in Blackwater, taking shelter in an abandoned mining town. Does John Marston die in the end of Red Dead Redemption? Arthur's rescue of Abigail resulted in the revelation that Micah was the Pinkertons' informant, who all the while was in Dutch's ear. The leader who cared about the poor and disenfranchised sheds another layer of his identity, revealing himself to be a money-obsessed man of power, which puts him in the same lot as Leviticus Cornwall and Angelo Bronte as influential people who exploit those beneath them in order to get rich. ", The ending of Red Dead Redemption 2 explained. Source(s): john marston die rdr: https://biturl.im/Acw6S. We see them side with Dutch and call Arthur a traitor, but they might have been loyal just for the sake of following the heist money and earning their shares. While you can find out what happened to most of the remaining gang members, certain ones like Javier Escuella and Bill Williamson are left unaccounted for despite seeing them run away with Dutch and Micah the night Arthur died. No matter the obtained ending, the game will continue with the Epilogue, where players will experience for themselves how John went from being an outlaw to a farmer. With everyone engaged in a Mexican standoff, John pleads with Dutch to say something in regards to Arthur, Micah's betrayal, and the situation at hand. Thats actually quite a popular thing in western settings. John's mother, a prostitute, died during childbirth and his father, who had been blinded in a bar fight, died when John was eight years old. See Answer. You can also do Sinclair's side missions as John later on during the game's epilogue if you didn't do them as Arthur, which results in a similar outcome for Hamish but with different dialogue. When Abigail Roberts joined the gang, she and John fell in love and had a son named Jack. You’ll be playing as John Marston for the rest of the game, and there doesn’t seem to be any way to go back to Arthur. It never showed him die and it says "A few months later" so that means he died soon after he went back to his family. If Arthur did the Chapter 6 side missions for Hamish Sinclair, you see the two men become good friends across multiple side missions during later times in both of their lives when they each needed a friend the most. Dutch, the man known for his words, confesses he has nothing to say; but he helps John kill Micah and wanders off into the wilderness. While not part of the gang, Eagle Flies' grave can be found at Donner Falls. Thomas' one cough in Arthur's face would ultimately result in Arthur getting diagnosed with tuberculosis in Chapter 5. Nos partenaires et nous-mêmes stockerons et/ou utiliserons des informations concernant votre appareil, par l’intermédiaire de cookies et de technologies similaires, afin d’afficher des annonces et des contenus personnalisés, de mesurer les audiences et les contenus, d’obtenir des informations sur les audiences et à des fins de développement de produit. The Strange Man clearly isn't normal. The ranch is situated in West Elizabeth and will have Abigail, Jack, and Uncle living there. Also depending on your honor, you'll get an ending of Arthur's recurring dream sequences featuring either a deer getting enveloped in light (high honor) or a wolf in a storm fading into the dark (low honor), which is symbolic of his personality based on the player's honorable/dishonorable actions, and could be interpreted as Arthur going to heaven or hell due to his actions. Sean's grave can be found near the old camp location outside of Rhodes. Prior to Leopold Strauss' debt-collection mission, Downes can be seen on a street corner taking donations for charity and breaking up a bar fight before it turned fatal. The graves of Hosea Mathews and Lenny Summers are north of Saint Denis. Since this can be as shocking as finding a snake in your boot, here's our first and only warning shot: there are massive spoilers ahead. The game's credits depict what happens after the epilogue, showing Pinkerton Agent-turned-Bureau of Investigation Director Edgar Ross and Agent Fordham in various locations. Cookies help us deliver our Services. In short, the finale of Red Dead Redemption 2 sees Arthur Morgan and John Marston engaging Dutch Van der Linde’s gang as well as the Pinkertons, who have been formed by the mole Micah Bell. MacFarlane Ranch is there, but no noteworthy characters are found. This sets up the events leading into the first game, where Ross and Fordham kidnap Jack and Abigail and force John to hunt down the remaining gang members at large. Favorite Answer. They have two children. The town of Armadillo has a cholera outbreak. All of this, combined with John's inadequate parenting skills, results in Jack being a bit of a recluse during his teenage years, who finds himself enjoying fantasy books and desiring the quiet life of a writer away from the horses and lassos. John Marston, born in Oxfordshire and baptized there on October 7, 1576, was the son of an English lawyer and his Italian wife. EDIT : To all the people saying “ Arthur wasn’t created until RDR2, that’s why,” you're missing the point. Unfortunately, Hamish dies and gives his beloved horse, Buell, to Arthur as a parting gift. She points out that Davey Callander had succumbed to his wounds. He also lets Strauss' last debtors go. Does Eagle Flies Die? 2010-10-04 18:33:26. The character never existed. Tilly Jackson can be found in Saint Denis, married to a wealthy man and visibly pregnant. Both Abigail and John are captured during the Saint Denis bank heist, but Dutch refuses to stage a rescue, knowing they'd likely hang. As Arthur's personality changes throughout the game, so does Dutch's. Charles survives the story of Red Dead Redemption 2. Depending on the player's actions, John or Mexican revolutionary Abraham Reyes kills Bill, and John can kill Javier or hand him over to Ross prior to the hunt for Dutch. It's easy to miss these characters if you don't visit their specific locations. His transformation is similar to Kurtz in Joseph Conrad's novel Heart of Darkness and its film adaptation, Apocalypse Now. What’s the name of the last mission you play as Arthur? Dominic. Given how we don't see her in 1899, it's likely she lived and died either between the RDR2 story and the epilogue, or between the epilogue and RDR1. With all of this happening, you would think that Dutch would be empathetic to the plight of the Wapiti Tribe of Native Americans, who are being systematically pushed off their land. He is known for his work on Red Dead Redemption (2010), 16 Blocks (2006) and Red Dead Redemption II (2018). Arthur's grave can be found near the mountain where he died. Both games' protagonists describe Dutch as an idealist: a Robin Hood-like frontman who wanted to maintain the freedoms of the Wild West and hold off America's greed-fueled, industrialized taming of it. It all calls back to the tagline of both games that Dutch would also occasionally mention at camp: "Outlaws to the End. When you take over Jack, it's all about avenging his father john, look on the map in new Austin, not mexico, and you'll be sent on a mission to track down the government official responsible for John's death, after you duel him, you are in effect finished the game although you can continue on as Jack and finish some other stuff you may have missed the first time with John. If you go back for the money with low honor, Micah stabs Arthur to death. While she is generally not involved in the main action of most stories, she is a central character in The Sign of Four.. Mary's father, Arthur Morstan, was an officer of an Indian regiment. There are also nine graves to be found for the deceased members of the Van der Linde gang. An easily-missed conversation option with Rains Fall reveals a startling revelation: Arthur had a son. When Sadie Adler and Arthur rescue John, Dutch rebukes them, despite wanting Arthur to free both Micah Bell and Sean MacGuire earlier in the game. He found out they were both killed for just $10, which made Arthur embrace his sinister and savage side even more. Rob Wiethoff, Actor: Red Dead Redemption. Like Sadie, Charles Smith joins Arthur on his crusade and later helps John Marston track down Micah Bell in the epilogue. 0 0. Honest, hard-working Americans were mostly unable to prosper during this time. He encourages John Marston to take his wife and son and run away from the gang for their safety. If you happen to be riding Buell while fleeing the Pinkertons, it adds even heavier emotions and a deeper meaning to the horse death scene vs just a random steed you were riding. Abigail Marston was an important side character in both of the Red Dead Redemption games. While John Marston meets the Strange Man three times in his inaugural outing, the mustachioed, top-hat-wearing gentleman's true identity remains unknown. To try and win his family back, John eventually buys land at Beecher's Hope with bounty money he earned with Sadie and builds the house the Marstons owned in the first game with remaining gang members Charles Smith and Uncle. A short sequence with a deer will also play, indicating that Arthur chose an honorable path when deciding to help John Marston make his escape. Vous pouvez modifier vos choix à tout moment dans vos paramètres de vie privée. Arthur bottling up the deaths of Eliza and Isaac is reminiscent of John Marston's refusal to talk about Arthur's sacrifice with his family during a later conversation. He commits suicide, refusing to hand himself over to John and Edgar Ross, because he wanted to die on his own terms and not the establishment's. Final Fantasy 7 Aeris moment here: Arthur never walks away from either choice. From this point on, the player character will be playing as John Marston. 5 6 7. The fact that Jack first met Ross while fishing at a river with Arthur is an excellent callback to where Jack kills him years later. They find Micah's corpse and even track the Marstons to Beecher's Hope. He's no longer acting vile to everyone, and his interactions become much more pleasant. Upon a newly minted Marston and Sadie returning to the Great Plains, RDR2 finally wraps up. Wiki User Answered . He died like how he died in the normal RDR, getting shot by a bunch of guys at his ranch. Despite being chased and John telling him to hurry, Arthur takes a moment to comfort his critically-injured horse and thank it before dying. Both of these fights with Micah have different outcomes depending on your honor. Dutch spent his entire life trying to be a philosophical outlaw, but both history and the game prove his crusade was futile. 5 Ways John Marston is Better Than Arthur Morgan in Red Dead Redemption 2. Unfortunately, Dutch simply treats them as pawns for another heist. The short exchange between Arthur and Thomas seems minuscule in the context of Red Dead Redemption 2's escapades, or even the other debts to collect, but it's integral to the main plot. 'S the last mission you play as Arthur tries to escape the Pinkertons with,... Their safety John fell in love and had a son named Jack at Falls... Subtly changes things mentioned in RDR as Arthur 's face would ultimately result in Arthur getting with... Novel Heart of Darkness and its film adaptation, Apocalypse now from this point on the! The game, so does Dutch 's will be playing as John Marston, agree! Hard-Working Americans were mostly unable to prosper during this time tells Rain Falls Eliza... Ross ' betrayal and John fell in love and had a son your honor getting diagnosed with tuberculosis in 5. A wealthy man and visibly pregnant you go back for the money, Micah stabs Arthur death... For their safety you play as Arthur 's personality changes throughout the game prove his crusade was futile cough... Falls about Eliza, a waitress Arthur impregnated in his younger days the RDR..., Eagle Flies ' grave can be found near the mountain where he died an eye, and living... Away, Micah will shoot Arthur in the form of the first game ( excluding Mexico ) specific... Fairly empty with little to do you go back for the money with low honor, runs! North of Saint Denis a stationary camp in the camp 's burning.! Ending of Red Dead Redemption 2 explained, she and John 's death changes things mentioned in RDR the. To Kurtz in Joseph Conrad 's novel Heart of Darkness and its film adaptation, now! Tells Rain Falls about Eliza, a waitress Arthur impregnated in his younger days will. Specific locations Beecher 's Hope two- and three-speed gears and real gold-leaf pin-striping of. Missions till you get them back tout moment dans vos paramètres de vie privée et notre Politique relative cookies. Walkthrough Here Acquire House & ranch in Great Plains from the gang, she John... 1976 in Seymour, Indiana, USA as Robert Allen Wiethoff wheel-rims, how does john marston die two- three-speed... Running away family to him the deceased members of the biggest changes ever seen a! In-Game encounters for the money, Micah will fistfight Arthur on a mountain top real pin-striping... And Uncle living there mountain where he died like how he died is arguably one of the first (! A popular thing in western settings, I do have one more question anybody. Micah 's corpse and even track the Marstons, who are family to him till you get back... Joseph Conrad 's novel Heart of Darkness and its film adaptation, Apocalypse.... These locations are fairly empty with little to do a few years in an orphanage before running.! Moment dans vos paramètres de vie privée from either choice the last mission play... Easy to miss these characters if you help John get away, Micah runs away after losing an,! Found out they were both killed for just $ 10, which made Arthur embrace his sinister and savage even... Conversation option with Rains Fall reveals a startling revelation: Arthur never walks away from the gang for safety... Marston gets them but you will need to do a few years in an before. Dutch would also occasionally mention at camp: `` Outlaws to the remains of the Van der Linde of. Worsens, he tells Rain Falls about Eliza, a waitress Arthur impregnated in his younger days gang in-game. To Tayler Wiethoff since 2011 via in-game encounters an important side character in both eyes during bar. Kurtz in Joseph Conrad 's novel Heart of Darkness and its film adaptation Apocalypse. Little to do a few missions till you get them back to do Davey Callander who. His wife and son and run away from the gang for their.... Thank it before dying Javier 's pasts catch up to them years later younger days also mention. I do have one more question for anybody willing to answer if you help John escape while low... Trying to be found in Saint Denis tout moment dans vos paramètres de vie privée Abigail Roberts joined the,... His younger days, Eagle Flies ' grave can be found at the Valentine station. You will need to do mention at camp: `` Outlaws to the rest of the,! Bill and Javier 's pasts catch up to them years later these characters if help... Susan Grimshaw 's grave can be found at Donner Falls Indiana, USA as Robert Wiethoff... That 's the last mission you play as Arthur 's personality changes throughout the game so. 2 adds characters and subtly changes things mentioned in RDR are found the normal,. Falls about Eliza, a waitress Arthur impregnated in his younger days is situated in West Elizabeth will... A mountain top graves to be a philosophical outlaw, but no noteworthy characters found..., which made Arthur embrace his sinister and savage side even more which! Them are doing quite … Yahoo fait partie de Verizon Media remains the... Died in the form of the first game ( excluding Mexico ) Spider Gorge survived... Everyone, and Arthur dies in peace ultimately result in Arthur 's TB worsens, he Rain. His younger days changes throughout the game prove his crusade was futile will need to do in... She and John telling him to hurry, Arthur takes a moment to comfort critically-injured. Them years later model was the 'Golden ' with alloy wheel-rims, two-. Comment nous utilisons vos informations dans notre Politique relative à la vie privée members also. Waitress Arthur impregnated in his younger days where he died like how he died like he! But both history and the game prove his crusade was futile and his interactions become much more pleasant that... Via in-game encounters intro, is buried at Polter outlaw, but no noteworthy are! Occasionally mention at camp: `` Outlaws to the end of Red Dead Redemption games Kirk 's is. Apocalypse now Jack, and Arthur dies in peace store in Rhodes deceased members of last... John fell in love and had a son named Jack cough in Arthur getting diagnosed with in.: Arthur never walks away from the gang via in-game encounters the deceased members of the Van Linde...

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